Flattered or disappointed.
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Category: Cinderella Stamps
Forum Name: Cinderella Stamps
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URL: https://www.cinderellastampsforum.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=439
Printed Date: 26 March 2026 at 16:48
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Topic: Flattered or disappointed.
Posted By: Quilpusha
Subject: Flattered or disappointed.
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 23:29
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. . . I want you to picture the scene. June and I have returned from a fabulous West Wales holiday, rested and content.
I am greeted with the news that some of my Isle of Samson stamps have been sold on Ebay for good money. Imagine my surprise to find that the 'good money' equated to £51 (my price £1.50) for a strip of the Bird stamps and £26.01 (my price £1) for a block of the map stamps.
Now then, what to say about that.
Well, on the one hand I cannot help feeling flattered - who wouldn't. But I am also disappointed that someone who I have sold to in good faith should profit by selling the stamps without clearly stating that they are Cinderellas. They were sold in the Great Britain > Local Issues catagory, making them on a par with Jersey or Guernsey. So, misrepresented for sure.
I am discussing the whole matter with the dealer and with Ebay - as much as I can.
But my warning to all through this forum is, that Isle of Samson CINDERELLA stamps are on sale from http://www.fidgetyforest.com - www.fidgetyforest.com at the correct and resonable price. I shall be watching all future sales more carefully, and probably selling through Ebay myself at my price as a 'Buy Now' item. Then, If people still want to spend that sort of money, well they have been warned.
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Replies:
Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 23:48
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On eBay the stamps are worth what someone will pay for them on the day. Next week you could find a similar lot not selling at all, despite a low start price. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Quilpusha
Date Posted: 11 September 2011 at 23:53
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. . . for sure Steve, I know that.
But items should be correctly listed - these were misrepresented. That creates an uneven playing field for everyone.
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Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 01:01
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Firstly all of these Island Local Posts are Cinderellas. And the British Island Posts vary greatly from being true postal services through to fantasy or 'what if' issues. A Local Post issue does not put them on a par with Jersey and Guernsey which are full international postal authorities, but on a par with Lundy and Staffa. Your issues have the same postal validity as many of such island issues, and more than some as you have official approval to be sole distributor. I am surprised though that a bidding war must have happened to bump the prices up that high. At least two collectors were daft enough to put in what can only be described as high bids for these stamps when a simple Google search would reveal all. The phrases more money than sense, and a fool and his money are soon parted. These comments are by no means meant as a reflection on your stamps. You should neither be flattered or disappointed. The stamps were not misrepresented by the common standards used by sellers on eBay. The only emotion would be surprise (followed by indecision over a price hike for the next issue). ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Keegan
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 02:04
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Hi Peter, to expand on Steve's coments regarding the catagorisation of your Samson stamps, they would sit most comfortably under the heading of locals, when you talk about stamps from Jersey and Guernsey I think they would be called 'regionals', a major difference is having the Queen's head on them.
Puting your stuff on Ebay yourself at a 'Buy It Now' price would eliminate their auction. If you didn't want to go down that road then why not copy the issuer of the very nice Canvey Island stamps and only sell one of each to every customer?
Just to digress, I (and every other island local collector) would love any covers you could actually get taken to and posted from the island - that is the ultimate proof of a postal service.
Meanwhile keep up the nice issues. ------------- Rehab is for quitters |
Posted By: Daniel
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 11:44
Peter, I would have to agree with Steve and Keegan on this one. I don't think that the seller committed any ebay violation at all. If you look under 'locals' in 'stamps' you get Lundy, Staffa, Herm Island etc.. I'm sure the seller was just as surprised as you when he got those fantastic prices. It wasn't me but it's good to know that my sheet of the Bird stamps is now worth £300, my best investment ever  He started the auctions at 99p and there were multiple (6 or 7) bidders. He also stated that they were issued in 2011 so anyone could have made a search if they so chose.I would definitely be flattered. Looking forward to the next issue. |
Posted By: Colin
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 20:54
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Peter - perhaps this would make the basis of a good article for your feature in the CSC newsletter? ------------- My Etsy shop - FarFetchedPhilately - Check regularly for updates and special offers... https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/FarFetchedPhilately . |
Posted By: Quilpusha
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 21:27
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. . . you could be right Colin.
But, space is at a premium, and so promoting the next Isle of Samson stamps - the Christmas Issue - in advance will take priority.
I have taken all comments on board, and spoken to the Ebay Dealer. He says that he has emailed the winning bidder explaining the discrepancies regards description. He accepts that things could have been explained better.
I told him of my plan to sell on ebay in future at Buy Now prices, thus stopping the oportunity for anything like this again.
For myself, I do think that this whole Island/Local thing is a grey area, with some of the GB Islands having 'legal' postage stamps and some Cinderellas. Seasoned collectors should be well aware of what is going on. But newcomers to our hobby could easily be confused. I still think that honesty in describing stamps whatever they proport to be, is paramount.
For me, QED.
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Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 00:30
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I don't know how recently the webpage has been updated (the latest year mentioned is 2008) but I found http://www.stampshows.com/local-post.html - this very interesting in terms of the author's attempt to categorise locals, the lists of issuers (past and present) and the very long (yet inevitably massively non-comprehensive) list of issuers about which the author has been unable to make up his or her mind usually because of a lack of information. The author's categories are presumably debatable but that's partly what makes them interesting. It seems to me they have some merit but the devil is in the detail. There's definitely a distinction being drawn between: Locals where there is some form (however rudimentary it would seem) of real world local postal service for which the local stamps are a prepayment, either for carriage from a collection point to a delivery point wholly within the local jurisdiction (category 1a) or for carriage between a collection point in the local jurisdiction to a trans-shipment point into a national postal delivery system (category 1b). Amongst UK island locals, probably Lundy and the Summer Isles seem the most significant of these to me. Locals where there isn't any form of local carriage associated with the apparent prepayment for services represented by the local stamp. The author seems to have two categories for these, 2a (cinderellas - real places) and 3abcde (bogus - real places) and doesn't make explicit what the difference is (some issuers could clearly fit into both categories at first glance) but I presume from the phrasing that "cinderellas" is intended to signify that the issuer makes clear that the stamps are not "real" locals (i.e. not category 1a or 1b stamps) whereas "bogus" is intended to signify that the issuer does not make clear that the stamps are not "real" locals or even explicitly misleads that the stamps are "real" locals when they are not. On that basis, I guess, Peter, that you would be happy with Isle of Samson as category 2a, which would be the same as some other UK island locals (just as an example, iirc, Daniel posted an image of a cover from Steep Holm a while back and that sounds like a similar case to Samson) but not others (e.g. Lundy and the Summer Isles where there is a real local carriage element to the postal service however limited or even artificial it might be).
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Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 06:58
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I wonder how that author would classify the Cole Island Local Post. This was short lived during the 1970s, and I cannot find the one article that mentioned it, So I am relying on memory. Cole Island lies in the Thames near Swindon, and was the home of one man or family. It was linked to the banks by a bridge, but the local post office refused to cross the bridge to deliver letters, insisting the owner picked them up from a posting box on the bank. The owner objected and challenged the post office by rubber stamping mail in and out with a simple design saying just Cole Is 2p. I don't suppose any money was actually involved, but publicity about this 'local post' provoked a response from the post office. I do not know how this ended up and a Google search reveals nothing. I do howver have an example of the stamp on a piece and a cover. Could be the rarest GB Island Local Post. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Keegan
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 04:58
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Some good points here, learned people (or anoraks) can 'define' until it suits them but my understanding is that a local postal service can be created where no GPO service exists and there is a genuine need for one.
Islands are a good example, even uninhabited ones have a seasonal need as visitors want souvenirs of their visit. If the GPO decline to deliver or collect from the island (as is their right) then it is accepted practice to allow the carrier of mail to charge a fee for the cost of carrying the mail to and from from the island to where it may enter the official GPO system on the mainland.
The only rule the GPO enforce is that island stamps (or labels as they insist on calling them) can only be affixed and cancelled on the rear of an envelope or plain postcard OR on the top left corner of the written side of a picture postcard.
Of course some issuers ride roughshod over this fairly loose and friendly understanding, Staffa and Eynhallow for example issued up to 20 sets of 8 stamps every year, even producing such items as Airmail issues which is a little odd for an uninhabited island with no airport! Often in quantities of half a million stamps, its no wonder that islands like this have no more than 'wallpaper' status among genuine local collectors.
The Cole Island service is a new one to me and I'd love to see a picture of one if its possible and to learn more about its history/issues etc.
------------- Rehab is for quitters |
Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 05:05
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Give me a day or two to sort out Cole Is. As for Eynhallow and similar so-called posts, i agree with you, but can just see a glimmer of them being collectable in Thematic collections. I hadn't realised the quantities of those being produced; wallpapering would be possible. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 07:37
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Keegan wrote:Posted By: Quilpusha
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 21:51
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. . . they must have created a market - the cost of producing 500,000 stamps is not inconsiderable.
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Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 18 September 2011 at 21:58
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market? more like a shopping mall ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: 19 September 2011 at 00:46
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http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/794/781/231004/ - 794 F.2d 781: United States of America, Plaintiff-appellee, v. Philatelic Leasing, Ltd., Melvin Hersch and Hambrose Stamps Ltd, Defendants-appellants in the United States Court of Appeals, Second Circuit in 1986; and http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/888/385/203651/ - 888 F.2d 385: Joseph M. Newmyer, John W. Kwiatkowski, John C. Collins and Tobin R. Collins, Plaintiffs-appellants, v. Philatelic Leasing Ltd et al, Defendants-appellees - Edward O'Connell, Plaintiff-appellant, v. Philatelic Leasing Ltd et al, Defendants-appellees in the United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit in 1989. To the extent that I understand the arrangements, Feigenbaum and his associates used a complex structure of intermediate companies to "sell" an interest in "stamp masters" (the plates from which the various island "stamps" were produced) to high income and/or high net worth US investors who were typically at the time liable to a marginal tax rate of 50%. Because of the structure of the interest that these US investors "bought", it was intended by Feigenbaum and his associates that they could claim a number of tax deductions in the current year against the amount they "paid". However, much of what they "paid" was not in cash but in such forms as non-recourse promissory notes (deferred debt that could never in practice be claimed from them). The value of the tax shelters created by these schemes ran into millions of US dollars. Feigenbaum and his associates got the cash payments. The US investors got the value of their tax shelters. And the US government and tax authorities got very unhappy. And then the US investors got very unhappy when the IRS started denying them the tax shelter benefits they thought they had obtained through Feigenbaum's scheme. The fundamental argument as to why the scheme was a fraud was based on the huge valuations put on the "stamp masters" by allegedly "independent" "philatelic experts" which underpinned the dollar value of the tax shelters that could be created. I presume this also required the production of lots of "stamps" and probably the creation of lots of "demand" from various unidentifiable places that were of course in no way connected to Feigenbaum and his associates. So, any "market" amongst actual cinderella collectors sufficiently gullible to purchase the "stamps" of Bernera, Eynhallow, Grunay and Staffa in particular during this period of massive production was in reality crowded out by the above shenanigans and any such collectors were in practice simply and unwittingly adding to the case being made by Feigenbaum and his associates that the "stamps" had real value and hence that the instruments sold to the US investors had real value and hence that the tax shelters created were legitimate. |
Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 26 September 2011 at 10:26
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I have realised that I may have added to this debate when some envelopes arrive very soon ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 28 September 2011 at 21:45
 ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 24 October 2011 at 11:05
More like a month to sort it out.  The actual dsign weighs in at 42 x 14 mm I shall continue looking for the example I have on a cover ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |
Posted By: Keegan
Date Posted: 26 October 2011 at 02:35
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Hi Steve, Thanks very much for the illustration of the Cole Island cancel.
Very nice and a new one for me to track down.
I'll add it to my wish list and hope the Ebay fairy smiles on me. ------------- Rehab is for quitters |
Posted By: Steve
Date Posted: 06 February 2012 at 08:49
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I have located the cover with the Cole Island rubber stamp Putting this image and a few more on a new thread - Some Local Posts ------------- https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Discworld-Stamp-Collector/809424215750892" rel="nofollow - The Discworld Stamp Collector on FaceBook Have a look! |